Laura Cartwright: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the second episode of Bricks and Banter with me, Laura Cartwright. 

Tom Parkinson: And me, Tom Parkinson. 

Laura Cartwright: So, Tom, we're just overwhelmed, aren't we? After the first podcast that we did, we can't believe how many people we've had. A couple of hundred people download this, and it's far more over and above than we ever expected. 

Tom Parkinson: Blown away, to be honest. We're quite overwhelmed with the number of listens, downloads that we've had, statistics, the really, really low drop off rate, the hundreds of listens that we've had. 

Laura Cartwright: Some really kind comments from people, which is great. And anywhere I've been and seen people, they've come up to me and said how good it was. 

Tom Parkinson: One joker told me that we should do it once a week. Don't know. A, whether that's fair to everybody and B, whether we find the time, but no fair comment. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. So, countries in America, we've got three downloads, I think, in North America, and one download in South America. So think about that. 

Tom Parkinson: We can get this list up here on this app that we're using. It's actually quite extraordinary, isn't it? Look at some of these cities here. We've got Melbourne in Australia, Buenos Aires, Las Vegas, Staley Ridge. 

Laura Cartwright: What interest do they have in us, I wonder? 

Tom Parkinson: Who knows? 

Laura Cartwright: But it's certainly good to see. And as you say, that app's great, isn't it? You can see people from all over the world who've listened or downloaded very least. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a great bit of kit. I mean, it's my friend, obviously, Steve Hindley, who's guided us in terms of this little project that we're doing and the technology we need to use. And I don't think we'd have got. 

Laura Cartwright: This far without him. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely not. No, absolutely not. I should mention his name. Yes. Steve Hindley, of iNarrator, really good friend of mine. This isn't an intentional plugin. Ask me to do it. It's just right to acknowledge people who are helping us. Steve being a big part of this, as you have mentioned. But his firm's great. It does a lot to the legal sector, to be honest with you, in terms of on hold music, voice recordings, things like voiceovers, podcasts like this. So, no, great guy. Really useful person to know. 

Laura Cartwright: And he's certainly encouraged us, hasn't he? 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. 

Laura Cartwright: And we've also had 143 page reviews on LinkedIn and 61 followers. 

Tom Parkinson: Really? 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. 

Tom Parkinson: That's amazing. 

Laura Cartwright: Ridiculous, isn't it? 

Tom Parkinson: What's the page review? 

Laura Cartwright: I don't know. It just says that on the app. I thought you'd tell me. So if you haven't already downloaded, please do so. And if you want to follow us. 

Tom Parkinson: As well, then, yeah, I'll review the page. 

Laura Cartwright: Or review the page. Definitely, yeah. So how's the microphone? Because those that won't know. Tom was really pleased with how he looked with his headphones on. I think he thought he was Tom. 

Tom Parkinson: Cruise flying some kind of airline pilot. Forward slash, Chris Moyles, forward slash. I don't know. Scott Mills. 

Laura Cartwright: When he heard that he was going to be a different setup and a clip on headphone, he wasn't quite sure about it. I mean, he did tell me it was because he liked to hear himself. I think, personally, I think it was a little bit. It was a bit more cosmetic, but turn into cosmetic. Have you got the same shirt on again? 

Tom Parkinson: Same colour pink. Just a different shirt, fortunately. I'm glad people can't see us because it's not very flattering with the old. The heat that we're receiving today. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. Looks good with the tan. 

Tom Parkinson: Thank you very much. 

Laura Cartwright: So what have you been up to recently? 

Tom Parkinson: Quite a bit recently. Quite a bit. I guess we'll come on to the work side of things later. In terms of what? I mean, day to day in the office. We've had an interesting month since we last spoke. I'm just continuing appraisal, but we'll come back to that. But largely a couple events with yourself. We had the. What do you have? Ca event last Thursday that was really good. Really well attended. So a great venue at Howden's. Or Howden, should I say? Not Howden's. 

Laura Cartwright: Yes, Howden. 

Tom Parkinson: Is that the kitchen? 

Laura Cartwright: Howden's the kitchen, yeah. 

Tom Parkinson: Definitely been told of many times. We've called it Howden's, but Howden. That was a really good event there. 

Laura Cartwright: So which bit of that. Yeah, I thought the agenda. Really good. Which bit of that did you enjoy listening to the most? 

Tom Parkinson: Do you enjoy it? Do you not enjoy. Do. I'm going to sound controversial or not? 

Laura Cartwright: I don't say the menopause that I've session because you'd cleared off by that. 

Tom Parkinson: Networking you got off the bar. I was networking. The person I was networking with has told me not to say I was with him, so I was networking at that point. No, seriously, that aside, the bank of England stuff. 

Laura Cartwright: Synchronisation. 

Tom Parkinson: Synchronisation. Listen to what they've got planned. Listen to what they've got in the pipeline that's going to impact us in some way. It's really going to have a significant impact on not just the way we operate but the way we run our firms. And it's going to be obviously a significant drop off in income there for the reasons we know. So it was interesting to hear about how the bank's preparing for it, how they're going to rely on third parties to kind of implement what needs to be done. 

Laura Cartwright: There was quite a lot of emotion in that room. I felt. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't understand why. 

Laura Cartwright: And it went on into the evening too. 

Tom Parkinson: I can understand why. I mean, the conversation certainly did continue, but there is a lot of concern about those changes. Definitely that, yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: One of the other speakers I enjoyed listening to was Claire Yates. She's always great to listen to, isn't she? Very passionate about what she does, but she's so funny with it as well. She brings a lot of humour. 

Tom Parkinson: She's great. I've met her two or three times, never seen her speak or present. 

Laura Cartwright: Oh, haven't you? 

Tom Parkinson: I've seen her once, but it's slightly. 

Laura Cartwright: Different to the one I'd heard previously. For those that don't know. Actually Claire is a trainer, isn't she? And her topic that she spoke about was how to deal with difficult people. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. 

Laura Cartwright: And yeah, she's. She certainly knows what to what she said. 

Tom Parkinson: A really good job of getting the points across. 

Laura Cartwright: She did. 

Tom Parkinson: Gave us some really good methods, if you like, for handling difficult clients. 

Laura Cartwright: Absolutely. 

Tom Parkinson: Making us look at it from a different perspective. Presentation technique is great. I guess if any staff are listening to this from Rowlandson's, I anticipate they'll be seeing her. Quite surely I need to drop Claire a line. Actually, I quite like to get her in and do some of Roland in Australia. 

Laura Cartwright: She'll probably have quite a few bookings from that because somebody else tell me to that they've already booked in or they intend to. 

Tom Parkinson: So I can understand why she was a good addition to the line-up and made it work really well. Yeah, really well. 

Laura Cartwright: And I'm not winding you up, so I'm just going back to the last topic, the menopause topic. I know. I only wanted to say that I was really impressed with the amount of men that did stay in the room, obviously employers, leaders and, you know, it is a taboo subject. A lot of people might have felt uncomfortable listening because it was quite a lengthy talk that Nicola Green did, but lots of people listened and people took a lot away from that too. And I also know that people are booking her as well. After that conversation, I understand why it's. 

Tom Parkinson: Certainly something which we need to look at in more detail. I mean, it does have a significant impact upon the way you run business and most importantly, your employees. 

Laura Cartwright: Absolutely. 

Tom Parkinson: And also personally. It's right that as blokes that we understand this. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, it affects you too, doesn't it? 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely, absolutely. So, no, it's certainly a hot topic at the moment. I'm glad it is. It's something we all need to be aware of and we need to make adequate provisions on the back of it. 

Laura Cartwright: Certainly. And talk about it, not just, you know, not raise the subject and think it's something that can't be talked about because the majority of people want to talk about it. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. We want to be good managers, so it's important that we know these things. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah, but it was. It was a good line up and really enjoyed the event. Well worth the trip. 

Tom Parkinson: Definitely. 

Laura Cartwright: So. So anything else? Have you. 

Tom Parkinson: Oh, I can't recall. 

Laura Cartwright: Been up and down the country, haven't you? 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah, obviously I've been here, there and everywhere recently in respect to the business development and the networking. Seen current referrers of work, potential new referrs of work, suppliers. Always important to be on top of things in terms of legal tech and how you might be able to bring things into your business, into your firm, to increase your processes and your efficiencies. So I've been doing a lot in that regard recently. Yeah. Just really, really clocking up the miles. For good reasons. For good reasons. 

Laura Cartwright: Is there anything else where you've been? 

Tom Parkinson: Where else have I been? Where have you been? 

Laura Cartwright: I don't think on my list. You've been anywhere else with me. So I went to. I'll tell you what I've been up to. So I went to the. Well, you might have been to this place. I went to Manchester Flower show with our good friends at Infotrack. That was a lovely afternoon. 

Tom Parkinson: Yes. I met with Infotrack and you mentioned you were there. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. And we went to your stomping ground, juicy street warehouse. Warehouse, yes. Yes. 

Tom Parkinson: Home from home. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. Yeah. So you're there quite a bit, aren't you? 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. Just a great place in Manchester. For anyone who is in Manchester and hasn't necessarily got a base, it's just a great place to go and get a coffee, get something to eat and just to meet people. Good Wi Fi, good connections, great booths. Just a really good place. So, yeah, it's a good place to be somewhere else. 

Laura Cartwright: I went to a law tech event that was held at Wakeman's in Liverpool, and our Mike Lehman was a speaker on one of the panels there. 

Tom Parkinson: How did you get on? 

Laura Cartwright: It was really, really good, actually, because something that I wasn't aware of was. There's obviously four universities in Liverpool and they have started to do a module regarding AI in law. And I think it was from John Moores, the guy that spoke. And he was saying how the first year they put it out, about three years ago, they thought they'd perhaps get about 25 people interested. But there was 90 people that were interested in doing that particular module. And that was about three years ago, I think. So it just shows, doesn't it, how it's going to be used a lot, lot more than we are already in the next few years, because we have trained lawyers up and coming who perhaps won't go down the usual route that we have, but they'll be using it more so in different areas, like technology, you know, things like that. So that was really interesting because it never occurred to me that they'd be doing those kind of modules already at university. 

Tom Parkinson: Something which had crossed my mind. Not something which I'm aware of, if I'm honest. I know legal geek is coming up. 

Laura Cartwright: It is. 

Tom Parkinson: I've seen one in Shoreditch in London, isn't it? I think I have a clash that day, but I really wanted to attend that. 

Laura Cartwright: We'll have to sync our diaries then. 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. A lot being spoken about. I don't know whether Mike Lehman's going down there. Might be able to report back to us all. Maybe we can talk about that, some of the things that he finds in the next episode that we do. But that looks like a really useful day in respect to legal tech and looking what might be coming down the line or indeed what is in use we might be missing. So something which is a shame if I can't attend it, because it looks really good. 

Laura Cartwright: It does, yeah. We've had our second CQS assessment, so we're done now with the assessments that were expected to do CQs wise. So we're pleased about that. 

Tom Parkinson: That's out the way we submitted ours. 

Laura Cartwright: Have you? We all do at different times of the year, don't we? So we're not till November. 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: But we have just come off the back of a three day Lexell audit too. 

Tom Parkinson: Okay. 

Laura Cartwright: We got 20 areas of good practice, so it's the highest we've ever had. We're really pleased with that. So I've been to a networking event in Liverpool, the bold Liverpool bold b, two b. The lovely Kerry McKenna runs these regularly in Liverpool. And that was good to go to and have some guest speakers there. So I enjoyed that. Meetings galore, interviews, obviously, to help with growth. So, yeah, been really, really busy. And also, did I mention I went to. I don't think I did. I went to chess races with LMS. So that was a really good day. Very, very hot. But some great people met some people that. That, you know, that I've only ever heard of or connected with on LinkedIn. Stuart Cartwright from law show. 

Tom Parkinson: Great guy. 

Laura Cartwright: He's one of them. 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah, yeah. I love the law share guys. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah, yeah. It was really nice to meet him, chatted to him for quite a while. So, yeah, that was another good day. 

Tom Parkinson: You've just joined. Have you just joined the law Sher scheme? 

Laura Cartwright: We have. Early this year, January this year, especially. 

Tom Parkinson: For businesses like ourselves. Why turn clients away if you don't offer a particular legal service or particular area of law, especially those niche areas of law, when you can refer it to, like I say, trusted firm like JMW and the guys that you trust, like Stuart, Peter, Elaine, Rebecca. Yeah. And get an income. Absolutely get an income. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. 

Tom Parkinson: It's nice to be near the post that day. And those checks just arrived through the post. And, you know, your clients been looked after well. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. 

Tom Parkinson: So no good service? Good service, but good job. 

Laura Cartwright: So nothing else you can think of? 

Tom Parkinson: No. But it did seem like the world and his wife were at that Chester races, that event. I think it was just three days, wasn't it, on LinkedIn of just photograph, photograph, photograph. 

Laura Cartwright: And I think because of the weather. 

Tom Parkinson: To get out there. Weather was amazing. Yeah. So, really well attended. And it's good for the city of Chester as well. Obviously, we've close. Situated very close to Chester. You live very close to Chester. It's great for the local economy, and the city really comes alive during that week. So, yeah, great to see and. Yeah, great event to attend. 

Laura Cartwright: Good. So should we get onto the topic that we wanted to talk about or. I certainly wanted to talk about today. 

Tom Parkinson: You wanted to talk about it. You gave me no heads up and told everyone on LinkedIn. What would you say? 

Laura Cartwright: Well, it's a topic that I'm very passionate about, and it's like I did say on LinkedIn, it's culture in the workplace. And I think that's because I've been here a long time and I've seen things. I suppose as you get older, you only realize what you have seen previously perhaps isn't the right way to deal with things. So you make sure you try to make sure that those things don't happen again and you don't want to see those things again. And you just want everybody to come into work and feel as though that they are valued and, you know, you want to be. I suppose it was when I became a leader that I thought that I just needed to give a lot more to the staff and support them in all areas. And I think following Covid and obviously the restrictions and everything that was in place when people came back into the office, they've needed more support than they've ever needed before. The younger generation certainly do. They're not frightened of speaking up and telling you how they feel and wanting to speak to you about all sorts of things, which is great. And I think that the psychological safety in the workplace is a huge thing now. Do you know what? 

Tom Parkinson: That is not a clue. Thank you for saying that on this recording. What is it? 

Laura Cartwright: Psycho psychological safety in the workplace. 

Tom Parkinson: Go and educate me. Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: Okay. So it's about supporting the staff in the right way. It's making everybody feel as though they have what their opinions count. I suppose. So not criticizing somebody just because they want to speak their mind in the right way. If somebody has a suggestion to make that might be better than a process or a practice that you already have, perhaps listen to what they have to say, because it could be something that perhaps is better than yours or better than any other person in the management team. Not wanting to punish or humiliate people. I mean, I think that's long gone, isn't it? Anyway, in the majority of the workplaces. But I think humiliation sometimes, I don't think people intentionally do it, but it's very easy to humiliate somebody just by laughing. Sometimes it's something that they say when they perhaps said something wrong. So it's, you know, it's that kind of thing. And also their concerns that they may have, listening to those and any mistake that they may have made. I mean, I think that's certainly for us one of the biggest things, isn't it? 

Tom Parkinson: Yes. 

Laura Cartwright: Somebody wants to make some mistake. You want them to be able to come to you and tell you that they've done that, be honest about it, and not feel as though that because they're humiliated, intimidated, that they can't open up and tell you that they've made a mistake. Because we all know a mistake is far easier to correct or to deal with if, you know, early on, rather than problem shared is what problems shared is a problem half. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. Makes sense. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah, it certainly does so. And obviously encouraging people to be aware of their own behaviour in work, you know, giving the motivation to be, I suppose, find the best version of themselves to empathise, use their own social skills so they get on with their peers and the colleagues in work. Everybody comes from a different background, don't they? And everybody has a different kind of home life. Things go on that we don't know about. And being supportive as managers is one of the, you know, the biggest thing. Like I said to you before, kindness is not a weakness. 

Tom Parkinson: No, absolutely not. 

Laura Cartwright: It's not at all. 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely not. I mean, what you've described, there is a very kind of broad range of management techniques, if you like, or management skills or where you should be as a manager. In my mind, I wouldn't have. What's it called? 

Laura Cartwright: Psycho psychological safety. Psychological safety, not psycho psychological safety. 

Tom Parkinson: Thank you for educating me. I just think a lot of that, I'm pleased to say, is was what we do. We really do value our staff members, we really do want to look after them. We really do want to encourage this atmosphere or the environment of openness and honesty. We want to discuss problems and issues which people have. We want to be welcoming and as best we can, we run an open door policy at all levels. Okay? There may be education, wages. Can you just give us 1 minute, please? Can you just give us a couple of minutes? Can we just put in a time in the diary for this afternoon? But I'd hope all of our staff know that we're approachable and we're massively behind everything that you've suggested and hugely accommodating to our staff in terms of any conversations they want to have. 

Laura Cartwright: How do you think it feels to be on the receiving end of you? Receiving end of you in the workplace? Do you feel as though, does that something that crosses your mind sometimes when you're, you know, you're needing to speak to somebody? 

Tom Parkinson: To be honest with you, I can only explain it, really. What a question. I would only hope, and I kind of do believe it. I know we're going under here, keep fanning me down. I can only hope that people do find me approachable and open, calm and friendly, supportive, willing to work things through, never afraid, never worried as to what I might say. That's what I always try to be like, if you like, with the staff. And I can only hope that really does come across with the staff and the way they find me and many respects. I do believe it does, I do. 

Laura Cartwright: So you embrace hybrid working as we do, don't you? 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Laura Cartwright: Something that you've carried on. And the majority of your staff, do they take you up on that or do you find that people want now to be back in the workplace? 

Tom Parkinson: It's a funny one, hybrid working, isn't it, for flexible work, in whichever way you want to call it. We strongly believe there's a time and a place for it. It might depend on each business's individual needs. I understand that. But for our part, for Rollinsons, we're open to it. We believe it's got a value in the workplace. We're able to, within reason, see what people are up to. Very much trust them. 

Laura Cartwright: We know in conveyancing there's no hiding place. 

Tom Parkinson: Well, there's not. 

Laura Cartwright: Don't do your job, then the clients are at you straight away. 

Tom Parkinson: There's massive trust with our employees. We trust them to get on with what they need to do when they're at home. We don't really see the need to get them back in the office. Don't really see how that's going to improve anything. I think massively. What's massively important is kind of the staff's well being and this work life balance. 

Laura Cartwright: What's that point? 

Tom Parkinson: It has. What's the point in getting in a car at 08:15 at breakneck speed to get into the office for 09:00? 

Laura Cartwright: That's right. 

Tom Parkinson: They can log on. Everyone can actually stay at home. Drop your kids off. I mean, my child, he's had sports day today. Circumstances have conspired against me to get there, but if we're able to, then that kind of flexible working, home working, there's a time and a place for it. As a people who want to go for a walk on the lunch or need to get off a parent's evening, things like that. We really do think there's a place for it and a real tangible benefit for the staff. One thing we've actually done recently is we had to be careful here with this. And Andrew Graves, my co director, came up with the idea of an happy hour. 

Laura Cartwright: That sounds good, doesn't it? 

Tom Parkinson: It was fine. 

Laura Cartwright: You were paying too well. 

Tom Parkinson: We told him to Google what an happy hour was, just to be safe. But essentially, we've allotted a good number of happy hours to staff over the course of a year without any real reason. They're able to cash in these hours, whether an hour later start or an hour earlier finish and you're able to have an happy hour. It does always put a smile on my face when a member of staff comes into my office and says, I've just had an happy hour. I'm just like. But I know what it means. And, yeah, it's a good thing we've brought in, and it's just little things like that we're continuously trying to do to help the staff. 

Laura Cartwright: And what about flexible working? Do you have that kind of policy? 

Tom Parkinson: Flexible working policy? People are entitled to make requests in line with the policy and we find our staff. Do we have people? 

Laura Cartwright: Certainly those with children. I think that's what we're finding, that they want to do five days in four, and we let them do that as long as they do their hours at some stage. And it works for them. They're saving on nursery fees, which are astronomical as well, aren't they? 

Tom Parkinson: Exactly, exactly. It's a huge expense, as I know. Another thing we've done as well is enable staff within reason, within a time frame, a window. Like to choose the start time or the finish time. Yeah, within reason. And that works well. That's worked well. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. So obviously, as a manager, how do you think you support and motivate your team? What do you think your skills are? 

Tom Parkinson: Just constant contact, if you like. We always want to feed back to our staff. We want to hear it from them. You said it before, Laura. It's a two way street. We start. It's usually a two way street, I'll tell you now, I try our bloody hardest in respect of management, but we don't always get things right. We trained lawyers. 

Laura Cartwright: It's a continuous, evolving situation, isn't it? 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: You think that something's good and then you realize it really isn't good at all and that you have to change. 

Tom Parkinson: We trained lawyers and we don't always get it right. Some of the best ideas we've had, like things like these happy hours, or kind of the choose your start times or whatever it may be. And a lot of the other things we've done have come from the staff directly. So, yeah, it's massively important to be open and listen to your staff, and as long as they put it across you constructively, I don't mind. But in terms of myself, just very much being open, just being friendly, open door policy, regular feedbacks, or sitting down with them monthly, individually, we have the huge appraisal process, which I mentioned last time, and it was mentioned at the start of this podcast of the huge appraisal process. Honestly, I record that up. We've got 60, 70 members of staff. And the hours we put into that appraisal process as managers, I think we were tipping about 150 hours in terms of prep, sitting down and write ups and training plans. But we really, really do it for the staff. We really do it for the staff, yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: And in the same way as us, your professional development and career growth, you're very keen with that, aren't you? 

Tom Parkinson: Hugely, yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: We've got lots of trainees in all areas and we value that as well. 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. I mean, some of my co directors were trainees solicitors at Rowlinson's. I joined as a. Can you watch an NQ? If our staff don't. Not necessarily volunteer, if our staff don't want to take it upon themselves to do kind of professional qualifications, we will certainly give them the opportunities. Have you considered this? Have you considered that the property department, which we're concerned about, if you considered the license conveyance, of course, maybe when you broaden your horizons a little bit, look at the Silexian. Once you've got that far, do you want to go the whole hog and maybe look at the SqE course? 

Laura Cartwright: So, yeah, certainly the younger generation, they're very keen on progression. We get asked a lot when we interview people for an assistant role or a role in the new business team and they ask about progression, they want to know about progression because they have those goals. They never used to see that when you interview people, so that's really good. And as you do, we offer apprenticeships and silex or CLC training, you know, anything that they want to talk to us about. 

Tom Parkinson: How have you found the legal apprenticeships, the law apprenticeships? 

Laura Cartwright: We had somebody that started it, but he's no longer with us now. 

Tom Parkinson: It's a good result. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, I believe it's quite tough, though. 

Tom Parkinson: I don't know what it doing through the University of Law, you know what they're doing? Bloody brilliant. Really good. 

Laura Cartwright: They work full time as well as doing. 

Tom Parkinson: They work four days a week and they're doing a six year course. Yeah, I believe it's six years, but pretty much cramming in the full time kind of academic side of things, in the spare time, in that one day a week away from the office, on the weekends and the evenings, is a real tough ask. 

Laura Cartwright: Six years is a long time. 

Tom Parkinson: Six years, including your SQE. You got to do your academics and then you've got to do your portfolio, then you move on to your Sqe prep and the SqE assessment itself, it really is a tough ask. If anyone was to say, would you recommend it? Well, yes, as long as you go into it eyes wide open and you come out of it at the end of those six years being a fully qualified solicitor with a fraction the debt, if you choose to live at home. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. Well, it's interesting, once yours are qualified. So are they about three or four years in or is it still early stages? 

Tom Parkinson: Three or four. Three and four. Three and four. 

Laura Cartwright: So they can see the end result? 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. There's light at the end of the tunnel for them. One thing I would say is the girl, the lady who's the furthest in, she was the second cohort, if you like, the second group to ever go through this apprenticeship. So I think the course providers have been maybe learning, as the first two or three cohorts have gone through, and fine tuning the apprenticeship. So I believe it's a lot more smoother for new entrants, if you like, where I think collectively the organisations and our couple of members of staff, I've had to work the way through this process. 

Laura Cartwright: I always believe, too, that the homegrown staff, you can't beat them, can you, because you've got the trust, haven't you? 

Tom Parkinson: Absolutely. I was only saying this to one of our members of staff today in one of the appraisals, that the people who've been with you long, so they're the ones you really trust, they're the ones who stick with you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Laura Cartwright: Great. Okay. Well, I enjoyed that conversation about culture. I told you it wouldn't be too bad. 

Tom Parkinson: I did. All right, then. Without reading any notes. And that's another point. I'm sat here with no notes and you've got like a page of a one in front of you. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, you shouldn't become so unprepared. That's really shoddy. I'll wait for next time when you'll lead it next time, see how you go on. Okay, so what have you got planned, then, in the next couple of weeks? 

Tom Parkinson: Well, lots coming up. We're getting into holiday season. We are, but we need to make sure we've got the appropriate cover in place and whatever else. 

Laura Cartwright: What do you do during holiday season, then? So we have somebody that works with us full time and he's a conveyancer, he has a small caseload, and then when somebody takes a holiday, he covers their holiday and obviously sickness he covers. And he helps assistants when they're on holiday. 

Tom Parkinson: It's a really good question. Some people think we're barking mad, but we have somebody sat there, doesn't generate a fee, income, but is there to provide holiday cover again? 

Laura Cartwright: Going back to culture, they all say it's absolutely life changing. They go on holiday and they come back, all their emails are dealt with, caseload has progressed. 

Tom Parkinson: Exactly why we do it. Go away and as best you can, have a good break, recharge and hopefully you're not coming back to two weeks worth of emails and correspondence. So we have someone dedicated to deal with the holiday cover. She's great. Been with us a long time. And we also actually have kind of an in house trainer checker for the more junior members of staff, someone who's dedicated to spend the time educating and checking and going through things with the more junior members of staff who are finding the way, or even more senior members of staff who just want to run things past a more experienced colleague. So two things there which we provide to our staff and, yeah, we might not see a fee income from them, if you like. No money. Money ain't everything. You see things in other ways. The benefit that is provided to our staff in kind of providing that is great. 

Laura Cartwright: It's like having the luxury of a post completion department, though, isn't it? There's no fees, there's no fee income at all. But if you didn't have it, this. 

Tom Parkinson: Is a larger conversation, isn't it? If you're charging right, you're not racing to the bottom in respect to your fees, you're able to structure your department correctly, you're able to look after your staff correctly, so it all flows through. That's another conversation. Fees. We'll do that next time. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, on that topic, actually. So something that is planned, and I know I mentioned this quickly last time, so Bo legal are doing their conference in the summer. Swell, 19 June, Regents University in London. For those that want to go, I would say that I know people think that these events are attended very male dominated and they're not. That event last year, there was a lot of female people that attended, really enjoyed it and it was a great day. So it's really worth going to some good guest speakers. And there is somebody there talking about pricing, apparently according to the agenda. 

Tom Parkinson: So someone there last year, didn't they? They had someone there last year. I think I do know the name of the company and the name of the gentleman. Yeah, I didn't want to say it wrong, Penguin. Yeah, I thought the gentlemen, but I didn't want to insult anyone in case I got it wrong. I thought that chat was really interesting. On the back of that, I went back to the back to the office and increased our fees. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah, that's right. 

Tom Parkinson: I remember you saying that. Absolutely. Significantly, too significantly by hundreds of hounds, just to have the confidence and the belief in our products, our services, our staff. 

Laura Cartwright: We've done that over the last twelve months. We've looked at and we thought, no, let's do this. Let's do this. We're good enough and people should be paying. So something else that they'll be talking about there apparently is upfront information and obviously the new ATA Six, that's another topic that's out there. And also well being for conveyancers. 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: So lots of what we've just talked about as well. 

Tom Parkinson: I'm not getting into this. They do ta six forms and no, not going this conversation. 

Laura Cartwright: Absolutely no, we'll leave that maybe next time or anytime after that. 

Tom Parkinson: Maybe that's finished up for information. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. So where are we going for a meal that night? 

Tom Parkinson: Sounds like a proposition. Listening to this. Maybe your children. 

Laura Cartwright: Have you not even booked yet? 

Tom Parkinson: That's because we went. That's right. Okay. 

Laura Cartwright: You know where I'm going. 

Tom Parkinson: I know where you're going with this now, right? Yeah. Because it went for a wonderful dinner. 

Laura Cartwright: Tom, you're just dropping me, isn't it? 

Tom Parkinson: We had a wonderful dinner last time, didn't we? 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. Now that we went to Camden. 

Tom Parkinson: We went to Camden to a Turkish Greek. To a Turkish, Greek Italian, was it? 

Laura Cartwright: I have no idea. 

Tom Parkinson: It was something organized by Rob Hozier. Organized by him and attended. Yeah, by kind of. Many of us turned up, didn't we? In the end? 

Laura Cartwright: There must have been about 20 people, I would say. 

Tom Parkinson: I think they're one of the best parts of the day because you're listening. The day you absorb, you think, and then in the evening you share conversations and how you're going to deal with these things and kind of feedback on. 

Laura Cartwright: I met lots of friends that night. So Laura Marg had never really had much to do with her previously. 

Tom Parkinson: She's a hoot. 

Laura Cartwright: She's a really, really good friend now. And Mark Slade, I met him that night. 

Tom Parkinson: Slade, yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: And his brother Matt was there too, I think so. It was the fiddle and prepper guys. It was really good to meet both of them. 

Tom Parkinson: No, it was good, but no. What was funny about that night? If you remember, we asked Harvey Hardin if he wanted to come out for some dinner with us. And he went, no, I better not. I better not. And I said, well, why not, Harvey? And he was like, I'm meeting my wife, I'm in London, and here's the opportunity. So I was like, all right, no problem, Harvey. You do what you want. Go off on your own. And good luck, ladies. As my dad would say, fill your boots. But then, lo and behold, out of. 

Laura Cartwright: All the restaurants, well, all the places in London. 

Tom Parkinson: All the places in London. 

Laura Cartwright: We bumped into him in a back street. 

Tom Parkinson: In the back street in London. We chose the place where he was serenaded. 

Laura Cartwright: Once again. We ended up in a bar or a place where you just think, what are we doing here? Who chooses these places? It's you. It's got your name written all over it again. 

Tom Parkinson: So don't know if that's good, but that is really good. And the weather's always nice, isn't it? 

Laura Cartwright: It is what it was last time. So. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that. The Manchester legal Awards. We go into that with ground Shaw, aren't we, with our lovely friend Gary Miller. 

Tom Parkinson: Oh, yeah. Got an invite. We both got an invite from GroundSure. 

Laura Cartwright: So that's on the 6 June. So we went last year, didn't we? 

Tom Parkinson: That was incredible. 

Laura Cartwright: Well attended event, really. 

Tom Parkinson: Good night. 

Laura Cartwright: Absolutely pinned in so many awards, aren't there? 

Tom Parkinson: Pinned in, like, pending. Pinned in, whatever you like. Sardines. You can't bloomin move. You know, the toilet is maybe 20 meters away, but it takes you 2 hours to get. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, I describe it as a beer colour, but for people that dressed in. 

Tom Parkinson: Dresses because of Fran Eccles Beck, you know, we put a lot of time and effort into it. So it's a great event, but it's very well attended. I think the good thing is the awards are very meaningful and everyone's deserving winners. And I know there's a rigorous judging process to get that far, in terms of the Manchester legal awards. My God, it's some party, isn't it? 

Laura Cartwright: It is another great event. Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose we should just touch on the fact that we both firms have been shortlisted for the modern law private client awards that are on the 4 July at the Titanic run warehouse at the Titanic, aren't they? 

Tom Parkinson: What did you get nominated for? 

Laura Cartwright: So we're shortlisted for outstanding client care, best use of technology and lawyer of the year Wilson program. So thank you. And you're paralegal of the year, is that right? 

Tom Parkinson: We entered, or she largely entered herself, to be honest with you. I'd hate to do any disservice, but we've got a great paralegal in our private client department, Sarah Green. She's great at what she does. One of those kind of rolling stones through and through. Been with us for a long time. Kind of came up with the idea herself. Did absolutely the vast majority in terms of that submission. Personally, I've seen that submission and it's generally one of those where hand on heart, everything in. It's true. There's no embellishment. 

Laura Cartwright: She's really passionate about a job. 

Tom Parkinson: She's usually passionate. She's hugely passionate. She's a great advocate at the firm. She's got great client care. I mean, yeah, she's up against other good, deserving competition, but fingers crossed for her in the evening. I can't attend that night, but I'll certainly be with her in spirit. I'm down at Henley. 

Laura Cartwright: You are? I remember you saying we've got an event tomorrow night, actually, or when I say we, I don't mean you. 

Tom Parkinson: You. 

Laura Cartwright: We are reopening our Warrington office. 

Tom Parkinson: Oh, excellent. 

Laura Cartwright: So we've had an office in Warrington for, I would say about 15 years. Maybe longer. Maybe longer than 15 years. And it closed. We closed the doors during COVID and we didn't reopen. It needed maintenance and repair. So that's all been done and we're having a reopening tomorrow. 

Tom Parkinson: Smashing. 

Laura Cartwright: So brilliant. Yeah. So inviting some people locally, so that will be good. 

Tom Parkinson: I didn't receive the invite, if I'm honest. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, I was going to say to you before, are you actually in the office tomorrow? So why don't you come along if you want. 

Tom Parkinson: Come down, get some Rowlinsons business cards. 

Laura Cartwright: Tuesday is your Manchester day, isn't it? Usually it is, yeah. 

Tom Parkinson: Tuesday is my day out in the office meetings or your day on the road. 

Laura Cartwright: So I've been asked also to chair the Liverpool Law Society residential property conference. That's on the 18 September. 

Tom Parkinson: Yes. 

Laura Cartwright: So I haven't done anything like that before, apparently. I just need to open it, say hello, and then just close it and say goodbye. 

Tom Parkinson: Hi. Thanks for coming. You gotta do that thing at the beginning, that horrible thing where it's. 

Laura Cartwright: There's no fire. 

Tom Parkinson: No, there's no fire drill planned today. If it is, it's a real scream. Follow me. I'll be first one out. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah. But our lovely friend Natalie. Natalie Moore, she's going to be speaking at that event too, so. Yeah, that'll be really nice to catch up with her. So anything else you can think of, anything that you've got coming up? 

Tom Parkinson: Looking at the calendar longer term, there's certainly a lot planned. A lot planned. 

Laura Cartwright: Didn't you tell me last week that you had a night where you sat and you booked all your hotels and all, you know, this OCD situation that you've got going on for the next six months, you have booked your hotels and your trains. 

Tom Parkinson: Pretty much my trains. And travel and everything. Yeah, for the past six months. Get it done. Get it done. It's absolutely terrible what little hair I've got left out by the end of the night. 

Laura Cartwright: That is organized, isn't it? Don't you get anybody to do that for you? I mean, I just thought, you know. 

Tom Parkinson: I'm just quite particular about wearing Lord Tom Parkinson. 

Laura Cartwright: We just have a memory. 

Tom Parkinson: You get the hotels.com rewards, don't you? 

Laura Cartwright: I know what you want to do. You want to get all the kind of Hilton honours, don't you? 

Tom Parkinson: Why, it's the hotel coupons I'm after, isn't it? 

Laura Cartwright: And the Avanti club tickets. 

Tom Parkinson: So many bloody trains. I get a free train ticket. 

Laura Cartwright: Have I got anything else? Yeah, actually, this is something really different that I haven't been invited to before. So man Roberts have invited me to the rugby league, St. Helens versus Castleford. So that's at the beginning of July. 

Tom Parkinson: I've not got a lot of time for St. Helens, being a Wigan fan, but moving on. 

Laura Cartwright: So I think that would be quite nice to go to that on a Friday evening and just see what the force is all about. 

Tom Parkinson: Brilliant. That's great. That's great. Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: I think that's all I've got in the next couple of weeks at the moment. 

Tom Parkinson: There's a lot, isn't there's a lot coming up? I mean, between now and the next time we're doing this, what, the end of June? I think that pretty much covers it. So by the time Saturday next, a lot more to talk about. Report back and we'll see where we get to with the blG. 

Laura Cartwright: Yeah, I've just something else, too, so. You keep calling me bricks all the time, don't you? So I was thinking about this at the weekend. So you know the kind of ant and deck thing. Well, you know when you look at our bricks and bags of photograph. 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: And I'm on. You're on the. So looking at the picture, you're on the left and I'm on the right. So that would mean your aunt and. 

Tom Parkinson: You're Ant and I'm Dec. So I've got the forehead. 

Laura Cartwright: Right, fair enough. 

Tom Parkinson: That makes sense. Fair enough. No, I've got quite taken now. Colony bricks. Something is quite good. 

Laura Cartwright: I've noticed. 

Tom Parkinson: What are you doing? 

Laura Cartwright: I've noticed. Go down well. 

Tom Parkinson: Brilliant. 

Laura Cartwright: Anyway, that was a really good conversation. That wasn't really good, was it? 

Tom Parkinson: Really good. Really good to catch up with you, Laura. Yeah, really good to do this again. I didn't think we'd be here again. Obviously. We did that first recording. Yeah, the pilot, the one which should have been a pilot, and we didn't never really fully intend to release it. We did. The feedback was great and I guess I was a little bit worried going to this one because the first one, we didn't know that we were going to release it, so it was more relaxed. With this one, we record it with a view, with a. 

Laura Cartwright: We've told them we don't have a choice. 

Tom Parkinson: People have emailed saying what's next? So it's just like, oh, shit, here we go. So, yeah. Yeah, great. No, it's been really good. Really good. What can kind of see is there's so much to talk about going forward, so, so much more to feed back on and to pass opinion on and our views. 

Laura Cartwright: Well, it's really nice having a conversation with you. So thanks, everybody, for listening and see you soon. See you soon. Thank you. 

Tom Parkinson: Bye bye. 

Laura Cartwright: How long was that? 

Tom Parkinson: 43 minutes. 

Laura Cartwright: Oh, was it? 

Tom Parkinson: Yeah. 

Laura Cartwright: I knew it was longer.